You guys are such hypocrites, like i said 111 or 125 fps also gives an advantage over 100fps player, even 70 fps does (A LOT).
All that was allways FINE, and now you start to whine ? The only valid point you have is the jetpack acceleration, and i really wish there was another fix for it then simply capping the fps.
Sub: do you think the game was balanced around 125 fps??
If you guys really wanna go through with this the cap SHOULD be at 100fps, and even then you can still switch to 70fps and achieve faster fire rate.
Therefore limiting the FPS isnt a solution at all.
Fraggie, the advantage of 125 over 76 means that nobody would choose to play at 76. Movement is far easier at this FPS.
The game was not balanced around 125, but 125 is a compromise. You move FAR away from the original balance when you go to 200.
125 is close enough to the truly intended LMG ROF (assuming they balanced it at 100fps it's only about a 5% difference) and is in fact slower than the intended pistol ROF.
However the ease of movement advantages of 125 over 100 are essential. Bunnyhopping is far easier and the game is smooth enough to play.
However, by far the most important point here is the issue of fairness. If the majority of the community cannot run 200 but can run 125 - and as you can see there is no real advantage of 76 over 125 - then it makes sense to level the playing field by limiting it to 125.
I can run 200 without structure spam so I understand the smoothness argument. However, at the same time I'm also the most qualified to tell you about the full extent of tearing. I can tell you that there is not a huge difference.
fix the mouse lag fix the fps bug and you will have your equality and every1 being happy. sorry but we all know it's not that easy.
majority of the community aint good fades and good jpers.
it's as same as my last ban on able.ns, admin banned me for my too short nick using that only as a silly reason to remove me from the srv since i was 2pro and was way better than the majority of able.ns community.
fix the damn mouse lag then i'll play on that 125 fps or 100 of yours.
Fix is simple: lower your windows sensitivity and raise your NS sensitivity. And I don't see how this is the same as your last ban at all, that just seemed to be more utter bullshit.
LOL S&M were alive for more than a year, also they sort of merged into Souljah which were one of the only teams to challenge the flatline/tn dominance. Get your facts straight spastic.
No, its not the same. The difference between 111FPS DPS with LMG is a bit more than the difference between 200FPS W0 -> W1. Assuming multi's numbers are correct.
I herby request that everyone has to play with a 10 € Keyboard like i do .. and further a LCD with 10 ms reactiontime !!! Should be a Benq tbh everything else is IMBA cause i cant get it ! <<<--- thats what u guys do when u request fps limitation !
This thread has gone way beyond the realms of what I would usually permit and it's only my absence over the weekend that has allowed the personal insults and excessive swearing to take place. I won't delete it this time because alot of the essence of the argument would be lost but I expect everyone to keep these kinds of attacks out of the debate.
I understand that the quality of the teams changes whether we can investigate the balancing of games but from our experience, we know that a carry player can have a much greater impact as an alien than as a marine. With the current situation being that a carry-fade gets slaughtered by a below-average team of 200fps jetpacks (which is undeniably the case), we can infer that imbalances are even heavier in favour of jetpack turtling at higher levels of play. Sure, the alien team has preventative measures like you said but it doesn't change the fact that the game is 95% won as soon as jetpacks are researched. Whether a team can prevent TECH-X or not, it doesn't justify having TECH-X obsolete TECH-Y while guaranteeing a long, boring win almost all the time.
It's this affect on the GAME, rather than the PLAYER, that i'm concerned with. Personally, I think a return of 15res jetpacks would go alot of the way to solving the issue but i'm extremely reluctant to change the mechanics of the game. As it stands though, ENSL exercises limits on various settings like rates so a similar cap on fps seems like a feasible solution to a problem we can't ignore.
Just to be clear, I don't hold any grudge against people who uses 200fps while it's legal. Also, i've noticed that the only people in support of 200fps belong a single clan ;). It seems to me that the support for a fps cap comes from a wider audience with fewer personal connections to individuals and whatnot!
Honestly I don't really care about the DPS difference or the acceleration.
It's really my personal preference to avoid games always being JPs because I think the kill+beacon tactic requires far less skill than the good blocking and constant welding you need to make HA work. I just think HA is more fun tbh, get enough flying in the alien round.
no i dont agree with that, i played today a gather with players like frg marko kuitmo king yo and me + vartija, in team a we had me and marko,vartija + some few other guys and in team b frg kuitmo king yo + lump as commander so all these 3 were on field, when marko was commanding so teams were very equal(even on favor of team b) and we did jp strat and yes we did win after switch lump did exactly almost same thing as marko did but team b didnt win. it's all about players and strategy of usage, jp doesnt mean you've won the game just so you know.
no it's not single clan, i've asked s4 what he thinks about that and his opinion wasnt any diffrent from mine, it's not a single clan it's just not everyone visiting this forum and saying their opinions, it's like that like once my ortodontist said, those who have no problems when with their brace dont complain because they dont have anything to complain and dont do opinions since they are happy users etc. but this small majority which have problems with thier brace cause they feel pain since it's metal in your mouth and teeths do lots complains on internet and so on and on, so there is always opinion of that smaller percent of ppl, that complain on net but it's understood as majority since those that dont have problems with that just dont write about it.
no, it's just a recent game event i've came up with and it's not a single one that has happened in my gaming experience when jp doesnt mean win. i think team b had everything needed to win marine/alien round especially when map is veil and we as team a had sub hive and they had cargo, so it's even more favouir for them.
also who the fuck are you to judge who's good fade and who's not when you're not good one yourself and you know shit about it since you always stick to lerking.
i didn't do anything like marko did. wtf are you talking about? the teams were in your favour actually.. we had 2 very weak people on the field, you had none. we didn't have more than one 200fps jps.. you did :P
shit argument, sorry, but this has no backing to your argument because it's a complete lie.
You still haven't addressed the bulk of my concern - nobody has really - which is that the quality of the game decreases because it obsoletes a tech and it creates a powerful and boring turtle-and-win strategy.
I'm also surprised that you provided one game as an example where Sublime quite rightly notes that there isn't a dedicated fade in team-b at all. In any case, whether or not there is a good fade or whether or not those teams are even (I consider you and marko the standout players at the moment but I don't want an argument about it), you CANNOT deny the massive increase in JP usage and the percentage of games won with jetpacks researched. Let's steer clear of these kinds of arguments as they are even more highly subjective and narrow than most.
If we get to the stage where we can use 400fps jetpacks, would we allow it? With that fps, you can walk faster than a celerity skulk once your adrenaline runs out, PERMANENTLY. Of course we wouldn't because it's totally ridiculous. The argument that you should be able to take advantage of whatever is available and that other people should just suck it up is totally unfair, unsportsmanly and flawed. Frg seems to think that this debate is hypocritical but the previous debates were not about balance issues; they were about individual player advantages. This issue is greater than that and to assume that the situations are identical is wrong. I wish it were that black and white but it isn't.
Earlier, the Olympics was used as an example of where limitations don't exist which is entirely misinformed. There are rules and regulations in almost every sport; from swimwear to the dimensions and weight of a bobsleigh to the forbidding of performance enhancing drugs. Formula 1 makes adjustments to the rules and regulations when they deem that an improvement in an area of technology leads to less competition, less entertainment and less dependency on driving skill. We must do a similar thing.
We have to realise that this is an old game that will not scale upwards fps-wise as the develepors intended. Bugs will crop up and the game will work in different and unforseeable ways. After all, the game is tested by real people on real computers. The playtesters PLAYtested the game under certain conditions but those conditions have now been changed. We have to be responsible enough to accept that, while playtesters no longer exist, ENSL is capable of replacing that role. On a side note; while I agree that the skill and the class-specific experience of a player affects his capacity to judge, lump actually *WAS* a playtester and, if we're going to get into semantics, trumps pretty much all of us when it comes to discussing balance issues.
I am pretty sure i was a playtester too, whether or not you've been a PT is stupid imo, as i am 100% sure that highskilled players (yes, i don't count lump as highskilled player) have more insight in game balance, especially when it considers fading and jetpacking.
From my point of view:
I agree with Tweadle on game balance, jetpacks are THE choice at the moment for about 95% of the games, or even 100%, but i dont think that has ANYTHING to do with 200fps at all, the mobiliti ha's have is almost non existent compared to celerity fades, nowadays the aliens are really focused at getting the marine rt's down, even most fades focus on that, therefore rendering HA completely useless.
I still think when there are 2 equally highskilled teams playing, a mixture of 3HA's and 2 JP's serves best.
What remains is the tactic of getting 5 jetpacks and slowly destroying chambers and rt's in both hives, and then beaconing out, not sure how to get a perfect counter for that, 8 oc's might do the job.
pardon me cause i dont remember i've been talking with you yesterday on steam and playing cs with you, now was i?
also in that game the only one keeping us alive was marko with his lerk on alien side since well i just flashed faded ; D so i didint fade brilianty either ; > it's just a recent event that happened while ago which can be remembred well, so you just missed the point of this and so did pat.
as you come with example of playtester i'll give a good one, sc2 for like 2-3 years in it's close stage was tested by so called proffesional players not by some community admins and guess what blizzard listened to them very carefully as they know what game is really about and just play very well. if ppl like multi me frg and even some other ppl that are not usually to be called really good tell you that this 200 fps should stay and give you reasons for that, then if you would be blizzard i'm sure you would take this as something very serious.
That mobility which you talk about is increased massively with the 200fps acceleration. It's very rare that you fly in one direction for that long so the quick speeds you achieve totally change the whole dynamics of hit-and-run. You're right; I think jetpacks are still probably the favourite choice but that's no argument to allow something that makes them an even stronger choice. The fact that you admit 100% of our games are using jetpacks must go against the very core of your previous playtesting self, surely.
I don't agree that rt pressure is better now than it used to be. It's really important that we stay away from comparing the present to the distant past anyway. It's subjective as we've just reinforced and not going to be very useful in this debate.
frG:
My point was that it's unproductive saying that lump has less say than others. Just because he doesn't fade, doesn't mean he can't feel the effects of 200fps jetpacks as a marine or as a skulk/gorge/lerk trying to play against them. I don't think he has more say as a playtester but there's an argument for it - one that wouldn't help at all.
aA:
Ok, s4 has developed an opinion. My bad.
We missed the point of your example because there's no way we can get the point without being there. That's why I said we shouldn't use specific examples in this debate.
Everyone:
Do you guys want to respond to any of the more interesting stuff that I said? Maybe you could just answer these questions with a "YES, BUT.." or a "NO, BECAUSE..".
- Would you allow 400fps CELERITY MARINE jetpacks?
- Would you allow a flying 1000fps onos?
- Do you agree that NS was balanced under totally different conditions to those that we face?
- Do you think that NS scales upwards fps-wise as the developers hoped?
- Do you accept that artificial limitations like those used in F1 and the Olympics are nothing new?
- Are you happy to have a research tech that is close to redundant?
- Do you think that the 200fps jetpacks have helped make heavy armour redundant?
he's shit generaly as a player he dies no matter what, not to me mention hes ignorant as well, i've just tryed to speak with him he told me i dont know what i am saying and i can't speak english that was his only argument and he started blabering something under his nose so i dont take him serious anymore nor his opinions.
you said we cannot provide examples as you provide examples based on f1 and olympics games, i base my examples on games i've played not the one i've never been into to like you do about f1 and so on and on, you've never been a part of this so you cant really know what is it about. limitations yes, we have rates etc. too much limitaions is just not good, only those that are neccesary.
i can add one thing times have changed since i've last time played in 2007 very very very, you either move forward or not, ns is diffrent that it was years ago way diffrent that's my perspective.
I'm not lump's biggest fan and everybody knows that but I can recognise that he's been around long enough that all the stuff he says that I disagree with (and there's alot) still represents a vote.
I said "specific examples" meaning it's not helpful to say "I played this round once and this is how it went...". Nobody can verify or agree with your example except the people playing and even those people may disagree anyway as lump already did. Using F1 and the Olympics as an example is different in that it illustrates a concept that we're applying. I'm not saying that they do it so we have to. I'm saying that it is done on a regular basis and for good reasons and that maybe we should consider the arguments behind it and see if they work for NS. I wouldn't have mentioned them in the first place if someone hadn't claimed incorrectly that the Olympics didn't do it so we shouldn't either.
I'm still curious about your answers to these questions because I want to understand where on this line between white and black you are:
- Would you allow 400fps CELERITY MARINE jetpacks?
- Would you allow a flying 1000fps onos?
- Do you agree that NS was balanced under totally different conditions to those that we face?
- Do you think that NS scales upwards fps-wise as the developers hoped?
- Do you accept that artificial limitations like those used in F1 and the Olympics are nothing new?
- Are you happy to have a research tech that is close to redundant?
- Do you think that the 200fps jetpacks have helped make heavy armour redundant?
