yay changes <o/

So many large changes!

I'm not sure how I feel about this. My main issue is that we're supposed to start playing matches TOMORROW and I don't even know if we're going to get a chance to scrim on this balance before we're supposed to play matches.

I wish these changes had come out 3-4 days ago...

Well done blind for having the bollox to make these changes, he needs to be congratulated on this - only time will tell if its right or wrong - but he has my congratulations for making the effort. Well done mate.

Yup, bold move. Let's hope it works.

Looking forward to seeing these changes in the cup tomorrow. I think the games will be more interesting for everyone now.

Not gonna lie, this sounds pretty terrible. We're fixing the problem with fades by nerfing skulks? So the goal is to make it so marines win before fades come out? I don't really get it. I'm also not a fan of nerfing something to the point that it's intentionally useless.. why don't we just play ns2 ffs?

Thanks for the quick work to you and your coder! Unfortunate the notice is so short, but it will certainly be interesting and I am looking forward to the games. At the very least it might provide some useful insight for the next official build.

Definitely is an interesting move, but i'll hold my thoughts to myself until we actually scrim on it a few times. Some of the changes i personally don't think are needed, but we shall see!

I would like to know the reasoning behind 60hp skulk.
The rest I can understand why (numbers I think I cant judge without playing), but nerf the skulk's hp? Im not sure why you would want to do that.

Oh boy, more last minute changes.

If you change skulk hp by 1 bullet, you have to change their ROF so that 2 bites is faster than 8 bullets.

My biggest problem with this mod is that its being released the day before matches are supposed to be played.

My second biggest problem is that the real issue behind balance is the fade ball - and this is not addressed at all. Either fade base health and scaling needs to be changed, or their cost needs to be increased.

Finally, I don't understand the skulk nerf at all... an explanation would be nice.

I'm pretty sure all this is going to do is make people resort to using bigger fade balls.

While I agree that gorges needed to be more expensive, doubling their cost while removing their best early game ability means that there isn't much reason to have a field gorge.

Umbra will now come after fades, so not much reason to pull a lerk out.

Skulks are going to be too weak to get anything done late game after the marines get weapons upgrades.

Solution? Everyone go fade!

Doesn't everyone go fade anyway?

I'm sorry did everyone miss the part where we were only getting mostly alien wins? It's for one cup, a cup without prizes. Play, relish the changes, enjoy.

You don't need always to play the game 1 week to see what happens if I change some numbers. It's very easy to think about the consequences (calculate the delay cause the harvesters cost, skulks weaker, shotguns earlier and now not so painful for the tres situtation and more powerful) but its good to see to make the tournament a little more funnier :)

I thought the main problem is fadeplosion, how is this gonna deal with it, marine wins before fades come out? Either way, shoutout to the size of balls you have. :) But... good effort wasted if you ask me.

To address the fadeplosion problem would need a fix that changes the game too much. E.g. increased cost per fade or something similar. The mod is only intended as a minor balance fix although there are more changes than was expected.
Either way it just give marines a better chance. It does not mean they have to win before fades are out, these changes should allow marines to techup a bit more before fades are out.

It's more and less a fun cup, I don't mind that we need to play with the new setup. Though, don't really agree with the SG buff and the skulk's HP nerf.

GORGE 10 RES WITH NO BABBLERS?!?! BLASPHEMY!!!

Marines doing better early game will do better against fade balls because they'll have better tech.

The reason why aliens have started winning more since the bt mod was released is because of 7-10 minute fades instead of 10-15 (40pres). This decrease in time means marines need to make fewer mistakes so that they can tech up to meet the fades. This means that marines have to play a near perfect early game.

Lowering skulk hp gives marines a better chance at not making those mistakes. However, it does not allow marines to make more mistakes. All of you saying "marines will win before fades come out" are foolish. If a team CAN manage that then they probably deserve to win but I do not think this will make up most of the marine wins we will see in the cup.

How much better? Who knows.

- Harvesters cost 12 tres (from 8) -- This change I can agree with, it makes Harvesters even more yummy to take down. Right now in the current build you can drop harvesters and aliens really don't care so much because they're cheap.

- Whips cost 20 tres (from 10) -- I think this should be lowered to 15 tres, considering they are essentially useless until bombard is up.

- Gorge cost 10 pres (from 5) -- <3

- Gorge upgrades are free (from 2) -- Makes sense <3

- Gorge eggs cost 15 tres (from 10) -- With the cahnge to gorge cost (pres), this also makes sense to up it.

- Skulk base HP is 60 (from 70) -- This I don't agree with and feel it should be up back to 70. However, last night while playing I didn't noticed too much of a difference while playing skulk or going against skulks.

- Shotgun research cost 10 tres (from 20) -- This should maybe be up to 15 tres, 10 makes them come up way too soon.

- Umbra needs 2nd hive to research -- I'm fine with this.

- Umbra absorbs on SG and LMG same damage -- I'm fine with this.

- Babblers cost 3 pres (from 1) and have 10 hp (from 30) and 0 armor (from 5) -- Thank god, babblers were way too overpowered especially in early game.

----------------------------

Overall last night I had a lot of fun scrimming on the mod, the main issue is still there though, fadeballs. Someone tossed around the idea of limiting the amount of fades to 3. Limiting however, no one would like. (3 fades, lerk + umbra, 2xOnos, or 1 onos + gorge.) I think even that composition could pull off a win easily. Or perhaps even up the flamethrower damage a bit again, this was very helpful last build to break up fades and allow you to get into position. Finally, the last thing that could be done is to lower the health slightly and increase the cost to 45. (again i'm sure most people would not agree to that)

Always modifiy the game before a cup... nice joke...

- Harvesters cost 12 tres (from 8)
The good prize was 10 ... and (nerf the heal spray of gorge...)

- Whips cost 20 tres (from 10)
Good prize was 15... (vanilla op)

- Gorge cost 10 pres (from 5)
good.

- Gorge upgrades are free (from 2)
why not.
- Gorge eggs cost 15 tres (from 10)
ok.
- Skulk base HP is 60 (from 70) [yes you read that correctly!]

Nice combat more faster. Skulk can kill marine in one sec , now marine can kill in one sec :d (yeah it's balance now but not fun)

- Shotgun research cost 10 tres (from 20)
ok but i prefer (15 tres)

- Umbra needs 2nd hive to research
Lerk defenitly useless.
- Umbra absorbs on SG and LMG same damage (SG factor 0.75 from 0.64) [means SG's aren't useless in umbra anymore]

- Babblers
No comment ... (just nerf To 2 pres) and not modify them (why kill a gameplay)

yes now marine take great advantages in beginning of the game...

But that not solve the problem...

A great balance will be up pres of fade 45-50. And re-up the lerk...

A great balance will that we need to use all lifeform to won...

Not to use 4-5 fade to won

I like how u make drama abour something that is just to make things more interesting .. for ONE tiny CUP !

I would say well done blind.

If i had played in last 2 months i would probaply also say .. skulk 60 HP .. that is weird shit but what the hell XD !

Also RFK is BEST !

YES GUYS WHY KILL A GAMEPLAY???

I thought this sounded terrible but after playing it, it seems pretty much fine. I still don't like the idea of nerfing things until they're useless though.. there has to be a better way to deal with babblers than to get rid of them xD

@Wob, I don't think anyone was saying that the marines WILL win before fades. The changes don't really make much of a difference by the time the fadeball comes out, and the fade ball still basically wins the game. So if the Marines are going to win, the have to do it before fades come out. Cause once the fades come out we're still back to the same situation we were in without this patch. Not saying that you cant win once fades come out, but I haven't seen too much of it happening.

I'd like to reiterate what others have said before that balance changes right before a tournament is bad form.

On to the changes though, I like the changes to the gorge cost/upgrades, but disagree without how aggressively babblers were nerfed. If you were intentionally making them useless, then just remove then. There are more elegant ways to address babblers. As it is right now, they are 300% more expensive and only 25% as effective. This makes their cost to effectiveness 1/12th (8.33%) of what it is on live. I know some people dislike babblers, but that's such an absurd knee-jerk response. A better way to handle it would have been to couple babbler health with bio-mass to make them weaker early, but still have relevance throughout the game.

I think whips are fine, a bombard whip used to cost a ton so 10 was a bit cheap, although 15 may have been better.

Harvesters being 12 is also a bit extreme and makes Harvesters 13-14 res if you include cysts. Why couldn't they have just been 10?

Skulk change seems a bit arbitrary and may stem from skulks winning early engagements due to babblers.

Umbra definitely needed to be toned down, so I agree with it having reduced effectiveness on shotguns, but putting it on second hive tech makes the lerk that much more useless and I think you'll just see some teams abandon lerk and go 5 fade.

Shotgun change also seems a bit arbitrary.

All in all, I like about half of these changes and think it should have been left at that.

äl oo äl eli siis lol

Played a few rounds on it now. It seems reasonably balanced, but things might change as teams get more experience with it.

It's too early to say that it is perfect (and it's probably not) but it is easily better than live. It feels much more balanced.

Also the point is not for marines to win before fades, but now it is easier to delay them and then get prepared better for them. And it does not only impact early, the 12res rt makes it more valuable to kill rts late game, and impact how much fades you will be able to retake after you lose them.

It's a lot harder to defend rts and even more difficult to play aggressively as aliens. 60hp skulks, no whips and no babblers make a big difference early game.

What king yo and fana just said.

Marines have a better chance early game so that they can be better equipped for fades.

But I just want to reiterate, these changes don't allow (forgive) marines to make more mistakes; they still need to play almost perfectly. It's just that the changes make it easier not to make these mistakes.

Likewise, it makes it easier for aliens to make mistakes which makes combat more interesting and valuable again for aliens.

I've watched a good few games with this patch, and whilst its not a complete game changer - its hard not to say that there haven't been better balanced games with a lot less 2-2 alien ties all round.