Played it once !

Makes everything better!
Because it is closer to NS1 again .. sadly still with aliencomm!

change log for this thing?

Is in the NEWS.

"Here you find a link with the balance mod, as well as a full changelog of it."

Look forward to this!

I've asked on several occasions to please consider the times of these events. If you want to stream as many of the games as possible why force them into fixed times? Also Sunday 16th is fathers day (i'm not sure if this is the same outside of the UK) - but what tells your dad "I love you" more than not being available to see him as you're playing computer games.

PLEASE let it happen that people can arrange games at a time that suits them - this is the best way to make it available to all.

"The Balance Mod is not for fun or a side project of Natural Selection 2, this mod will go live in the near future" and NS2 will very much go dead as a result... whether or not its better, you cannot completely redesign a game 6 months after launch...

Since the redesign is basically just going back to the roots .. i think Obama has the answer: YES WE CAN XD !

i agree, its a good change for the best of NS2 and most of the teams i have talked to cant wait to get this mod live.
Team Work & Tactics seems to be in a minority.

@ Bonkers its just a UK holiday. if we would consider all holidays arround the world we would never find a date to play.
Not fixed times result in games being delayed even more and into a to big event. That would be like another season ... a cup is meant that ppl can even play in mixed teams for this event just to play ;) no one is forced to play.

It seems to be the case for about 80 countries - not all massive NS2 playing I appreciate - but it is quite a major one. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Father's_Day

Point is the cup has to be done in a timeframe if I'm correct? So the quarters,semis have to be ready for Saturday 22nd June and Final for Sunday 23rd June (at a guess?)

I don't see why letting teams play for instance 2 games on a Sunday then another 3 during the week is a problem. It doesn't slow the process down at all, it's not just us that have problems playing games at fixed times. From memory there were a lot of games were default wins last time?

The pro's in having more games streamed, allowing teams to arrainge games at a time to suit them, more refs and servers being readily available, teams not waiting for other teams to finish a game which then has a trickle down effect on all games being delayed seem to outweigh the cons - which I haven't really seem mentioned?

i will consider this in a meeting with Blind and reddog. We will discuss the pro and cons for it, since its basicly UK / US only with a player base which would struggle from this event. We myb could make accecptions for some teams.

France, Canada, Turkey involved also - I'm not sure how major an event it is for everyone, but if its usual timings I would imagine it really hard for the US chaps especially?

I appreciate you discussing it though.

i think Bonkers with Fathers Day you might not have the best stand.

i do understand that it is important in some families .. but i am certain a lot of ppl dont really make a big deal out of that day.

what do you think the public scene will make of balance mod? why should I or they want to go back to NS1 roots? im generally happy with the game (apart from carapace issue in competitive and performance) so why would I want everything to change? also, if you think making such radical changes will have a positive effect, you are deluded - coming from quake scene, i know just how toxic 'promods' can be to the scene (even if they are amazingly awesome, and balance mod doesnt sound like CPM, sry siewlek :P). forcing a huge gameplay redesign on the NS2 community (public and competitive - though they are not equivalent in size) will have a disastrous overnight effect on playernumbers.

Yeah, fathers day is kind of a big deal. I had to flake on plans on mothers day in order to play a game that got rescheduled at the last minute.. not going fuck around with that shit again for fathers day too. You're gonna have a tough time getting american teams to particpate (for that day at least) as it's a fairly big deal over here.

this will be exciting! go out for fathers day before or after? idk. :p

+ 1 thelawenforcer. Agree completely. Some grumpy NS1 farts like Eisteet and Aioros will be happy. Most public players will hate it.

Then make some feedback posts in the NS2 forum, what to change and how to make it better. Better then insulting ppl here ;)

and @thelawenforcer that balance mod is no "promod". most of the feedback which was and is given is from public players.
Minor changes step by step would make even more players quit the game.
Would you like month of minor balance changes with some good and bad ones week for week?
Isn't it easyer to give the public players something finished and balanced instead of something unfinished week for week?

there is no game with this kind of gameplay and balance issues and u dont have the $ to make it step by step.

You shouldnt dicuss this topic here anyway, since NSL / the cup or even me got nothing to do with this mod going live any time soon. We just try to make ppl notice that there is something on their way.

ns1 had drastic gameplay changes trough the years. remember all the lerk changes? and so on...

Adapt or die.

+1 b1 !

Resistance is amusing

i find it amusing that you should say that b1 - after all, alot of the things in this mod are inspired by NS1 - the bunnyhopping on skulk and fade, the alien upgrade and build mechanics etc. who are the ones struggling to adapt?

@aioros - this is a promod because the people behind the gameplay design are old NS1 veterans, and the only people i see asking for it are a part of the competitive community. balance patches tend to be small changes and adjustments, not complete redesign of everything.

i think this is as good a place as any to discuss - this is pretty much one of the only places where the goal of all of this is made public. the fact this is more or less happening by stealth is not surprising, but all the more concerning.

hey lawenforcer .. i think you dont see what really is happening !

If you have not noticed . the ones actually being ON TOP OF NS2 ... Fana Tane and so on .. they are NS1 vets so they adapted!

All they are saying now is that THE GAME IS MORE FUN THE WAY IT USED TO BE !

So all the ns1 players adapted easily and are actually kicking your ass all over the place ... they just know that it could be even mroe fun to kick your ass with a few changes 8) !

Much Love EisTee !

Balance mod does some stuff wrong but a lot right. Overall, it'll be an improvement for both public and competitive NS2. You might even call is NS2 2.0 :)

@ thelawenforcer i dont get what your trying to accomplish here.

Since the early beta every player in Ns2 said that walljumping how UWE made is was broken. there are over 10 threads about that topic, they saw their mistake and changed the movement because of it.

There are so many games won just by the kill of a single champer of the aliens. Carapace killed, no res to redrop it in the next 2 minutes and you losse the game.
So many of this changes in the balance mod got rly good reason. Its not a promod since sewlek did most of the work himself.

Btw why are you discussing this topic here the cup comments? if you like to discuss this topic open up a forum thread @ ensl or ns2 forums.

PS.: just see the balance mod like an addon.
Starcraft2 just got an addon and it has more players then ever. Even with reworked abilitys and new units ;)

aioros: im trying to make the competitive community stop and think for a moment. it doesnt seem to have crossed anyones mind for a second the negative fallout that could happen from doing this? i was speaking to some guys on BT server, who supported the mod and idea, and amazingly, there seemed to have been no thought what so ever as to what this mod could do to the public scene and by extrapolation to the competitive scene in the long term - they didnt seem to care and were interested only in indulging themselves and their immediate desires.

i have no big problem with the UWE walljumping as it is, and like you say they fixed it, so why change it again? i would have a problem with returning to using a bug from 1996 as foundation of movement system.

eisteeAT: thanks for explaining it so nicely - the entire community of several thousand players, has to submit to the enlightened despotism of the tiny minority of NS1 competitive players (i would say they are 1/3 of the ns2 competitive players, and thats being generous) - all 30 of them. and none of you see this a posing a potential problem? this whole thing is a clusterfuck - the mod itself which is more of an NS1 inspired redesign rather than being a balance mod and the approach taken to its implementation are just so amateurish in the extreme, i still dont really believe that UWE will do it, but then again looking at the development of NS2 and some of its issues, it may very well make perfect sense to them.....

aioros - this can be seen as an addon - a forced one, the development of which has been made with input almost exclusively from one community and for which the intentions were never clear. tell me, where does UWE announce this addon, where do they ask for suggestions from the entire playerbase? 1 forum thread with no official endorsement or talk about it is nowhere near enough. in the sewlek thread, you see lots of people popping up with very low post counts sharing their concern about the content of the mod and the approach etc. doesnt matter, NS1 vets have to bulldoze their changes through. i suspect if you get your wish and this is implemented, you will see a flood of threads from disillusionned NS2 players not to mention the negative press.

nowhere else is it said so explicitly that this mod will replace vanilla NS2 - where else should I discuss whether this is even a good idea or not? it seems to me like it never took place and thus we are in the mess...

u need to understand that we got nothing to do with this mod, only providing feedback.
even so we all wouldnt like the change, it will still go live ....
UWE makes this kind of decisions, so your posting on the wrong page about this, if u want to make UWE stop. adress it to them, not to the ensl or me.

lol, are you serious? the whole point of this mod is the competitive community and thats the problem - no consideration has gone into how the changes will play out on public servers. i dont play public anymore, nor do many of the people posting here im sure, but a gaming scene is like a food chain - the public scene is the foundation of it all. without it, the game inevitably dies, and i believe that forcing a competitive focussed mod on the public scene will harm it, thus perversely undermining the competitive communities efforts to revitalise the game with this mod. you are making UWE shoot themselves in the foot if they do this. you may not be the ones with the trigger, but you're the ones whispering "... do it... go on.. squeeze it... PULL THE FUCKING TRIGGER ALREADY". UWE only does it because you guys tell them to.

Aehm .. if am i not completly mistaken NOONE in the ENSL has told them anything yet !

Slewek made this mod cause i guess he like NS1 better.

UWE took a look at it and might have seen some balance improvements.

They started to do the balancing a bit together .. i hope!

And now i guess they are asking for some input from the ENSL .. i dont think any competitive player has yet given any direct feedback to UWE that had actually any kind of effect on their plans.

That is just UWE!

Sorry to dissapoint you man but as Aioros said .. you are barking up the wrong tree!

The ENSL has no chance of stoping uwe or pushing them towards a decision.

The only thing we can do is play that cup maybe uwe sees some new problems and fixes some.

Maybe due to this cup they might say .. oh wait this is all BS .. you dont know ... but as far as i know every gametester that is still working with them is a PURE PUBBER .. so no competitive input anymore!

And yeah i maybe could have said it nicer .. but taht would just not be ME !

Much LOVE !

@thelawenforcer till know i thought your are a decent dude with an a statement.
after i heard that the mod is going live, i thought i try to help with the balance since we cant change the date of the release anymore. UWE ALREADY DECIDED IT.

if your rly think we got something to do with it. your the most retarded guy in this community and any communication with you is more then a time waste.

UWE does this on their own, we got nothing to do with it. stop telling lies.

i cleared this up with aioros, it turns out im not retarded :P he explained to me what UWE are doing and we agreed on many things such as this was partly a cash grab by UWE and that it was being handled extremely badly. i still believe that the competitive community could have highlighted this more vocally but didnt because the mod caters mainly to them but i understand aioro's approach to try and make the best of a shitty situation i hope the tournament is successful, and that out of it comes a better game, for everyone though i still suspect some people will be unhappy whatever you do.

I'm not sure how making the balance mod official would be a cash grab, especially since the change will be free (no paid DLC).

its a cash grab because they intend to run promotions at the same time. whilst this may draw in some new blood, but seeing as it could potentially be received poorly by the a significant part of the existing player base, i think its a gamble that UWE hopes will appease the ns1 bitter vets and generate a few more sales potentially at the cost of the casual players.

The only thing I can add, for the ones saying to ask in the Steam Forums: Those people tend to be more hard-core fans of the game (or people with HW/SW problems), so, asking there might not be that great.
What could be nice, is do a (promoted/advertised) week or weekend where a lot of servers go BT and then we can see how the more casual player reacts

This is all a load of bs. There is no reason to believe that a big patch will cause casual players to flee from the game -- the intention behind the patch is actually the opposite. As for the contents of the balance mod currently, it is far from perfect, but it is a big step up from vanilla ns2.

Well .. Fana ppl are still talking to you too .. we are just a nice bunch of ppl trying to help the slightly slower guys 8) !

fana - ROFL - the mod in its current iteration is almost entirely designed with ns1 bitter vets in mind. you are so desperate to get the game YOU want that you are willing to risk throwing everyone else under the bus for it. as the mod stands, i find it a big step down for NS2 - predictably for a 'balance mod' its an inconsistent jumbled mess of ideas.

"ns1 bitter vets". Do you even read your own crap?

You still haven't provided a single reasonable argument for why a significant update is a bad idea. Repeatedly shouting variations of "BUT THINK OF THE PUBBERS THEY WILL ALL QUIT" is not particularly convincing, nor is it a likely scenario to begin with.

I think i mentioned this before .. the balance mod is developed ENTIRELY WITH THE PUBBERS !

NOT ONE ENSL person involved!

just as asserting it to be 'a step up' doesnt make it be. i believe that considering that alot of casuals didnt hang around due to a) there be a lack of tutorials - a shitload of new, changed and tweaked mechanics delivered without tutorials doesnt seem like a very casual friendly thing to do! all the players that have spend time to learn how things work now have to start over b) because the skill gap was very broad - adding new mechanics with the intention of broadening the skill gap that are essentially a repackaging of old mechanics long mastered by veterans of the franchise again doesnt seem like a targetted solution. one the other hand - veterans have been critical of the movement systems since forever, and of the alien tech tree rigidity. do you see now why i believe this mod to wholly favor one side over the other? one only has to look at the 'problems' the mod is proposing solutions for and it becomes clear who the main beneficiaries are.

eisteeat - how can this be an inclusive design process? only the elite competitive community really had any idea this was going to happen... hopefully this cup will increase awareness - but, ironically, if thats the case, there isnt any real point in playing the cup because if the feedback from the cup will be taken onboard properly the mod will change radically again due to the more varied opinions and ideas being suggested.

I give up XD

He will never understand XD !

Comp players know because we're paying attention. There are multiple threads on the UWE forums with dozens of pages of responses discussing the mod. It has also been released in the Steam Workshop for over two months. Its not difficult to get a Balance Mod game going if you want to practice it.

yes, but this mod approaches issues in a way I fundamentally disagree with. the problem is this isnt even a mod i can avoid if i want to - if i want to keep playing ns2 in the future, it seems it will have to be under the guise of this mod that i consider to be flawed just as its proponents say vanilla is flawed.

Sorry law i like you. I like you so much that we could make love if we would meet in the future ;D. But I don't know what you want now.

You know the situation in NS 1 after NS 1 Version 2.0 was online? This was so fucking insane, cause they changed the WHOLE Gameplay in one moment! Now we have the same Situation. NS 2 need a change in many points. We had a lot discussed in the UWE forums before the Release from NS 2. Many changes in the balance mod was in the beta too. I like the changes that they made in the balance mod, one or two (maybe more, didn't play so much that i could say this or this could be better) points not (like the alien movement). And yes there are competetive players that had give ideas and points to make the changes. But lots of public player gave and give it actually too.

Pls discuss this in the UWE Balance Test forum, give feedback and we can discuss it. We need now to talk. We need now to play. Or give up and say goodbye NS like many players had done it now and maybe in the future. I will not give up MY(!) Natural-Selection 2. Here are so nice guys and many guys will i not miss and i wouldn't. I had not given up NS 1 so fast (WoW killed it ^^). The fun isn't killed in Balance Test and yeah you know what? We all can change something and say this is shit if we do it NOW, the patches from UWE wasn't better at all (babblers? Gorge Tunnel? After the next patches yeah but in the beginning?).

Your are TWAT! You and your teammates are really nice guys and much loved in the community and from RadicaL (;D), help now and get more love!

Cool Fade picture.

Also hail Division Wiking! Good times. Didn't Tark or Kryptoni or someone once meet the REAL Division Wiking member?

There's alot of big statements in these comments, with little to back it all up. To me it's alot of relative theories. Pretty sure UWE is clueless on what issues they have when you post them on ENSL Comments/Forums though.

But I would agree that UWE still hasn't found the right way to keep it's community upto date on what's happening. I would've presumed Hugh aka Strayan should've been more responsible on this subject with his PR title. Time to scrap all those Tutorials and start over.

I'm sure you aren't the only one against some of the balance changes, but not participating and not posting on UWE Forums about your thoughts, won't get you anywhere. Most competetive players I've heard are liking the changes. Don't know about the casual players, but they have just as much voice on the forums to make changes.

b1 - i am participating on the forums to try and a) start a debate about the wider implications of doing this and b) about the finer details of the mod.

as for the design influence - seeing at what the output is, its clear where the major design influence came from and which group of players have had the most say in how to 'balance' things.

UWE is being very silent on this because i'm sure they are aware of how big a dramabomb it will be when its released. considering the content of the changes and the context of how they were made, its probably a wise choice by them to do this by stealth as much as possible.

XDD !

All i ever read is ..

I make a lot of assumptions based on my gut feeling (c) thelawenforcer

thelawenforcer dont know if you troll, or just plain stupid and arrogant...

Ryssk, that's the thing. As soon as anyone tries to criticize the mod they get called stupid and arrogant. Honestly I've given up trying to give feedback, and I know a few others who have too because apparently saying anything negative about this mod is met with such vitriol.

Calling him stupid and arrogant only makes you look like those things. Try and keep it civil, and try to not be so immature as to think "everyone who disagrees with me is wrong".

Personally I love a lot of the changes, and hate some of the changes. What I do dislike is how silent UWE is on this whole process. It's ridiculous. They should either make an official statement saying that the balance mod or some of the changes in the balance mod will make it into the game, or make a statement to the contrary. That's what annoys me the most honestly, UWE's silence.

They did give an offical statement to it.

Hugh: "Balance Mod is a mod. There is no 'official plan' to replace Vanilla NS2 with Balance Mod."
Here

Cory: So I think the best thing to do is assume that we are going to incorporate a large amount of the mod into the game at some point soon, and if you want to have a say, play it. And play it a lot, not just a single game before passing judgement. And please don't just read the changelog before passing judgement, either.
Here

Who is more trustworthy?

aioros - that just demonstrates what a complete cluster fuck this whole thing is and everyone should oppose it on those grounds alone.if its naive to ask people to see beyond their own narrow self-interest and try to look at the big picture then so be it.

@Vrum I agree that name calling and such is unnecessary here, but what bothers me is all these post about how bad UWE and the new BT mod is and all the random stuff without any FACTS.

"I make a lot of assumptions based on my gut feeling (c)" Nicely put.

People might critize your feedback, but hey, maybe it's not a deal breaker or what's needed at that time? And maybe some people just like being mean, but that's the internet. Why stop posting feedback when every single player has been given a chance to help mold the game into something great.

There's ALOT of stuff in the new BT changed. I highly doubt they would override this EXPERIMENTAL MOD with Vanilla NS2. They are clearly stating parts of this will be put in bit-by-bit. NS2SHOWTIME & State of The Game both mentioned this MOD/CUP coming up and I am PRETTY SURE blind mentioned that "we don't know what's being put in exactly". HOW COULD WE? Don't go ballistic when there's no reason to.

thelawenforcer - i dont get why u rage so much about it.
its the first time since NS2 that they ASK for community feedback. now u got a voice to change thinks u dont like in the balance mod and what are u crying about?
That you are allowed to give feedback?
That there are parts in the balance mod you dont like?

ITS A TEST MOD, they test thinks out to choose the best parts of it.

you can make proper feedback, if you think it doesnt work. go ahead.

UWE let you take part in the new balance testing. a dream comes true and ppl cry and wanna stop it.

the outcome will be balance patches without doing it open. YEAH if thats what you like.

If they would have released it without saying, no public testing. you wouldnt cry that much, because they never took changes back even if the community screamed ;)

tbh stop crying ... do something positive.
play the BT mod and give feedback.
more then "i dont like it" and see what happens.

srsly ppl rly need to grow up.

"The Balance Mod is not for fun or a side project of Natural Selection 2, this mod will go live in the near future"

-newspost

"UWE is planning on moving forward with implementing the Balance Mod into Vanilla NS2 in some form"

"release date for that"

-cory from UWE

doesnt sound very incremental to me, and when you consider that two developpers seem to directly contradict each other two posts apart, design process issues aside, that things are not anywhere near as clear as you say they are.

Lets get this to the appropriate ENSL LEVEL !

SHUT UP THEY GOT MOTION TRACKING (c) dugi!

Yes that is as useless a sentence as .. pretty much everything up there 8) !

Much LOVE and as dugi would say .. IDIOTS !

(From UWE Forums):

-----

I read both posts as
"We will slowly implement a few changes, perhaps 1 at a time in live ns2. If this goes well we will keep doing this untill a large part of the balance mod may be live ns2".

If you read it like that then hugh is right in saying they will not port BT over. They wont, they do perhaps a change or 2.

If you read it like that then Sqeel is also right for saying in the long run they want to implement BT. - DC_Darkling

-----

You are free to 'Interpret' those post as you like, but honestly why do you insist on forcing your negative opinion on everyone, which clearly is an 'OPINION' and not facts.

Let me hit you with some facts.

Aioros has spoken to Sewlek directly, you haven't. He knows more than most of us about what is going on.

People (you)deliberately causing fuss here and on UWE Forums talking about how awful this is, you are setting yourself up as the problem with those SPECIFIC comments and making it worse for everyone who wants to participate and change the game.

Cory is a developer, Hugh is the PR guy. You do the math.

b1, im not opposed to you or anyone else wanting to make their own little mod and playing it - what i am against is forcing said mod or huge changes on others at this stage in the games life - especially when i have no reason to have confidence in the design process if there even is one... somethings i agree with in principle, but if the intention was truly 'balance seeking' the approach would be entirely different. it would involve a careful analysis of what we have currently, and then to apply small fixes until its no longer a game 'breaking' issue. which brings me to my 2nd point of contention with this mod - it attempts to 2nd guess the design decisions UWE made for NS2, some of which were never accepted by NS1 players.

From reading Cory's post, its clear that incremental changes are not part of the plan - which is why he mentions a release date.

"assume that we are going to incorporate a large amount of the mod into the game at some point soon" - cory

its written black on white, there is no other interpretation...

agiel, i would expect hugh to communicate accurate information to the community tbh. thats almost exclusively what hes there for - the fact that either UWE have not bothered to inform him about these plans or that he is lying about them is even worse but whatever.

History has a lot to teach you.

2.0 was a massive change. Everybody, even years after the patch, cried. Yet it was necessary and version 3.x NS is way better than 1.04 ever was. Anyone who knows anything about NS knows this.

Law, how about instead, you make a Vanilla NS2 Mod. That way you'll never have to change anything and you can play with whoever feels the same. See how helpful I was just now?

very helpful - your sense of entitlement and hypocrisy is showing all the more clearly i think. why must my mod stay as a mod to be played only by those who wish to? not that this wouldnt be the right way to do things - it would be! but why should BT be any different in that regard?

Because if UWE wants the BT to be official, they can't have it being a mod. If they are doing this, it's probably because in the future,when someone will think/talk about NS2, they want them to think/talk about what is in the BT, not what is in vanilla right now.

SC2:HotS replaced vanilla SC2. When you say "SC2" now, you mean SC2:HotW, not vanilla.

It's obviously different because it's an addon, but the idea is the same.

yes king_yo, but this was the plan from the very start - it was clearly communicated as such. also, it doesnt try to replace almost everything - there are a few new units and abilities, that have been tested and tweaked a shitload - its not like they decided to completely change how each race works. they also stuck to their design convictions - despite the whine from some MBS is still there for instance.

Its UWE's game so they do what they want with it, and while the intention might be worthy, the execution is terrible, and the execution is all that matters and something that UWE have alawys had a problem with - they have good ideas, executed really badly and this is just another example imo. we've seen how this poor execution has damaged the game's long term prospects (no tutorials, poor performance, loads of big bugs etc) and i believe something similar might happen here. this poor execution is already apparent in a) the design process for the mod and b) the way in which the developpers are communicating.

I don't think UWE are looking for someone to give them feedback on their approach to implementing game features. Even if it is not the best way. They just want feedback on the mod so perhaps we should just focus on that.

UWE's approach to the community and execution has always been somewhat terrible, that is no news. However, in the end they do fix things and are getting better at it.

Lets not feed this fire anymore, you've made your "point" law and others have made theirs. You can continue to make it on the UWE Forums, regarding how bad UWE handles themselves.

sammy thats all very well, but the implication is that UWE is following this shitty course of action at the behest of a small part of the community, who refuse to acknowledge anyone else's stake in the game. to a certain extent, certainly not exclusively though, a small part of the competitive community is acting like self interested enablers, to what i believe is the detriment of the wider community.

http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/130360/uwe-to-replace-vanilla-ns2-with-sewleks-balance-mod-in-the-near-future

K, Thanks.

Just stop replying to him.

Fana, yep gotta stop feeding the trolls.

AH let him reply .. it is nice to see some drama again on the ENSL XD !

Although YEAH .. that guy is resistant to any kind of input so .. LOLOLOL XD !

law, you should stop pussy footing around this whole subject and actually tell us what you think about the changes.

I'm interested to hear....