When I think about it, a 8-team Premier division could be good if we keep the lower divisions as 16-team divisions (split into groups of 8). It makes it pretty hard to get in the top divisions. While not splitting teams up too much in the overall league. I personally think the NA league have been split up too much due to teams wanting to be seperated from the top teams in a 16-team division. Some of the lower divisions could be playing eachother.

You really should ask all teams who are going to play against each other, how much they really do want to play against each other before making 16-team divisions.

@jiriki Are you talking about a 16-team division as in 15 matches to play? Because that is not what swalk said, he is suggesting 16 teams split into 2 groups of 8, like this season.

I think that sounds good. Would you want to make the premier division invitational or have up-down matches between each season? I think either could probably work, the only problem with up-down matches is that teams can go through big roster changes between seasons or completely new teams might form from players that should be in the top division.

A more organised seeding system for new teams joining the league would also be good. I am envisioning some sort of bracket like this:

http://i.imgur.com/jDL55PN.png

But I realise that logistically that would be tough to do in a short space of time, previous weekend tournaments have resulted in forfeit matches for many teams :-/

@jiriki From actually reading this thread, it gives me a good idea of what the teams are thinking. To me, it seems some of the top teams dislike the larger division sizes, because they are going up against opponents which are not up to par with them. I would like to keep the 16-team divisions in the lower divisions so the competetion is more spread and we don't get too many unnessesary division splits(like I feel happened to the NA league here in season 2). So my idea is to have the top division be an 8-team division with no groups, while the rest of the divisions are going to be 16-team divisions with 2 groups of 8 teams. I think that would somewhat solve some of these problems.

@YoungTrotsky I don't think we are going to make it any kind of "invitational" to play in the premier division. It should be with up/down matches as previously, so the teams can prove themselves. I think that makes most sense and is most fair.

In regards to the seeding system, I think it's a pretty good system we have at the moment(with the latest changes that happened just shortly before season 2 began). Unfortunately those changes came too late to have much effect on season 2 seeding matches. It allows for teams to test themselves on the level they desire to play at and I think it is a better system than giving new teams random opponents, it could give us alot of 4-0 results(which we can't use for much when placing seedings of teams). One change I would like is to make one seeding match mandatory to play in the league. So you have one mandatory seeding match and one voluntary seeding match.

I admit my idea is not very practical and now that there are 2 seasons' worth of data the seedings should be much better for season 3. How are you planning to to do the up-down matches with regards to teams disbanding? Will it be:

a) Active teams get moved up to fill the ranks before you decide the up/down matches, so the 14th,15th,16th active teams will play the 17th,18th,19th active teams for Div 1 spots. (Or I guess this would be 22nd/23rd/24th vs. 25th/26th/27th if you make 8-team premier division.)

b) Active teams get bye against disbanded teams, so Div 2 winner gets bye (Emblem disbanded), but 2nd and 3rd have to play 14th and 15th from Div 1. Then lower teams get moved up to fill slots of disbanded teams.

c) Have to start from scratch because of premier division so you have play-offs between 6th/11th, 7th/10th, 8th/9th for premier division spots, then put rest of active teams into ranks by season 2 finish and play up-down matches at the new cutoffs between divisions.

Also, do the up-down matches get played before the seeding matches? This seems like it could be pretty harsh on some teams if they win up-down match and then get bumped down by a new team who plays someone above them. This makes for great procrastination, take that exams!

YoungTrotsky: b is the winner. We talked this before in forums. After up-down matches finish, disbanded teams will be removed from seeding list.

If two more disband in div1, no up-down match will happen this season.

We have 16-team divisions now. I think there should be 4 up-down match at least.

In regards to the up/down matches and disbanded teams, we are going to remove the disbanded teams and automaticly move up top teams from the lower division. So for example, if we have teams disbanded in a division, the top teams from the lower division will be moved up without playing up/down matches(since their true opponents disbanded and they are next in line for the spot).

But if the top 8 teams go to separate premier division then top 8 from div 2 will all have to become div 1 and top 8 div 3 will become div 2, so up-down games will be kinda pointless unless you shift them down 8 slots :-S

Maybe it would be better to have divisions with only 8 teams, looking at current division 2 it seems there are 6 teams that are good and 7 teams that are... not so good (including my team). I dunno about division 3 but looking just at scores it seems divisions of 8 might be good. I think the NA teams are quite happy with their setup from what I've heard.

according to the current rules up-down matches only determine the seeding list order. Any team can go up in list by playing seeding match.

premier division - top 8 of the seeding list
div1 - 9-24 of the seeding list
div2 - 25-40 of the seeding list
...

As keLLa says, the up/down matches are there to be able to move your seedings across the divisions once the season is over, based on that season. If the division splits are different next season, the seedings made from the previous seasons will be used. So while the up/down matches won't be directly division switch related, it is a way to improve your general seeding.

What he got wrong though, is that only new teams to the league can play a seeding match(with a maximum of 2). Those matches are only meant to give a seeding to new teams of the league. And I want to make one of these mandatory to get more consistent data to make the divisions from. This season, most of the new teams didn't play these matches and alot of divisions were made with random seedings, particulary the EU div 3 and NA div 3-4. But in any case, the season gives us more data than the seeding matches as to where the teams are placed, so the current teams will smooth their seedings out come season 3.

I still think it could be kind of a problem to have the divisions consist of just 8 teams all across the board.
- You get less different teams to play across the season(semifinals, opponents coming from another group that you haven't met previously during the season, some excitement/preditctions lost).
- Potentially splits up alot of teams that are able to compete with eachother to at least some extent(specificly noticing this in the lower NA divisions this season).

OK, it may also be that once the top 8 go to make premier division the problem in div 2 will be solved anyway, because the bottom 8 from div 2 will then be mixed with div 3 teams anyway.

I think you might want to consider letting the top teams from division 2 have a chance to make it to the premier division though, there seem to be some very strong teams in div 2 atm. Maybe a small cup with teams 5-20 to see who get the bottom 4 premier spots?

Swalk: Placing a new team to seeding list with one match leads to unbalanced divs. (***)

-> Premier Div(1-6): No new teams should be placed.
-> Premier Div(elimination list .. 7-14): New team must win against 2 teams (1-14)
-> DIV1(9-24): New team must win against 2 teams (1-24 of seeding list)
-> 1 seeding match -> placed between 25-xx.
-> no seeding match -> lowest division

---

Young: Yeah, this is also good idea for new season.

I think division splits below will make divs more balanced. Also excitement rating will be increased.

Premier Division Winner: 1-4 play single-elimination tournament

---

Premier Division: (***)
6 teams -> 1-6 of the seeding list directly
2 teams -> 7-14 of the seeding list play single-elimination tournament

So last 2 of premier div and first 6 of div1 play tournament for the last 2 tickets of premier div. This also changes the seeding list.

----

div1 -> 9-24 of the seeding list
div2 -> 25-40 of the seeding list
div3 -> ...

----

If we have 16 teams in lower divisions, then there should be 4 up-down match at least. Also 8 team single-tournement can be an option.

DIV1-13 vs DIV2-4
DIV1-14 vs DIV2-3
DIV1-15 vs DIV2-2
DIV1-16 vs DIV2-1

But please remove group a and b stuff so u don't need any brackets and a new seeding system for a better seeding. A new team plays against place 7 and 8 from a COMPLETE division and goes one div higher each time they win the seeding till they can at least draw the games or win or lose them with 3-1. If they lose 4-0 against both times they have to play against 7 and 8 of the next lower division. If they lose there they will be seeded in the lower div till they draw or win or lose 3-1. If they win 4-0 both while they lost 4-0 both times of the higher division they will play against place 12/13(with only 3 seeds when 4 seeds available then place 11/12) of the COMPLETE division above. Like this program here:

D1 = Div1
D2 = Div2
D3 = Div3
ST = SeedingTeam
SE1 = SeedEnemie1 //Place 7
SE2 = SeedEnemie2 //Place 8
R = Result
W = Win
WL = WinLose
D = Draw
LW = LoseWin
L = Lose

D1Seed{
if(ST&&SE1 == R = L AND ST&&SE2 == R = L)
{
D2Seed()
}

else if(ST&&SE1 == R = L AND ST&&SE2 == R = LW)
{
D2Seed()
}

else D1Seed
}

D2Seed{
if(ST&&SE1 == R = L AND ST&&SE2 == R = L)
{
D3Seed()
}

else if(ST&&SE1 == R = L AND ST&&SE2 == R = LW)
{
D3Seed()
}

else if(ST&&SE1 == R = W AND ST&&SE2 == R = W)
{
if(ST&&SE1 == R = L AND ST&&SE2 == R = L) //against place 11/12 when 4 seeds will be played in season
{
D2Seed()
}
else if(ST&&SE1 == R = L AND ST&&SE2 == R = LW)//same here
{
D2Seed()
}
else ifelse if(ST&&SE1 == R = D(or better) AND ST&&SE2 == R = D(or better))//same here
{
D1Seed()
}
}
else D2Seed

-every lower div has the form from d2seed.
-premier div cannot be seeded from new teams
-new teams can decide which div they want to begin there seeding
-teams should be not able to switch the divisions after a successful seeding
-if skill level is not close enough div size minimize from 16 to 12

any suggestions to it?