I agree that the forums should be more heavily policed [censored] to try and curb the toxic nature breeding and to help promote critical discussion.

But really, there is absolutely no reason to have divisional admins. All its going to do is make simplistic things more complicated. What you really want are not 'admins' per say, you just want ideas in comp mod to go through a voting process. At least that's what I gathered from that novel.

I'm not signing anything made by this nazi closet racist piece of retarded mongoloid that is izo. Fuuuuuck youuuu.

Are you a samurai bro? Cause to me you sound like Schwarzy eating a fat black cock.

LOL

herakles says

I'm not signing anything made by this nazi closet racist piece of retarded mongoloid that is izo. Fuuuuuck youuuu.

Are you a samurai bro? Cause to me you sound like Schwarzy eating a fat black cock.

LOL

This is not censured only because he's French okay?

I'm not signing anything made by this nazi closet racist piece of retarded mongoloid that is izo. Fuuuuuck youuuu.

Are you a samurai bro? Cause to me you sound like Schwarzy eating a fat black cock.

LOL

From my experience with the ns2 community over the years, people who are willing to put in the work, listen to other people and generally strive to be productive and helpful community members have all "risen to the top" if you will. You can see this with the entirety of the CDT roster, the ENSL staff and those who consistently contribute to Cmod.

It's not that the lower divisions are being denied representation, it's that there has been no one who is willing to put in the work and dedication to do it (and do it well).

So my 2 concerns with this kind of mass democratic voting system is:

#1. The elected admins will not be dedicated enough nor be able to invest the time and thought into their duties. You will not be able to just pull reliable, reasonable individuals that people can trust to vote for their interests out of thin air. If such people existed, why are they not on the Cmod team or NSL staff already? It's been stated the door is open to both of these teams a millions times. It's because no one wants to bother with these responsibilities.

and #2. is that simply you'd never get anything done. No way are you going to get 5-6 people to agree on anything when the system is so big an spans so many divisions. This is assuming you can get mythical perfect admins who are unbiased, not trolling, and dedicated. (which I doubt would be possible given how vulnerable the voting system per-division would be open to being)



The existing entities are already very open to public sway. Imo the best way to get representation and subsequent changes, if you feel they are needed, is to find people who share your views and are willing to dedicate a small amount of time on a consistent basis to represent you. Have them contact Zefram to join the NSL staff or myself/dragon/golden/anyone else involved with cmod to join the Cmod team. Because 90% of the time, all we see are complaint threads on the forums, when the reality is that anyone is open to contacting any of the 'powers that be' and if you deliver a well reasoned and detailed argument, it's likely that you will be listened to. But again, it's finding the people willing to do this that is truly the hard part. A lot of people would rather grab their torches and pitchforks on the forums and argue endlessly about how 'the man' is holding them down than try to put forth rational arguments for the actual issues.

As kind of an afterthought, it's also extremely difficult to gauge interest or support for a given issue in this community. A lot of times it appears to be just a small number of individuals who are claiming something is a problem, but how do you know if the majority of the community agrees with it? They certainly don't post on the forums. Especially when there is usually an equally small number of individuals vocalizing opposite views. Usually all there is to go on is hearsay and the minor amount of people who are being vocal about it. But there is no real way to know. This is something that will always be a huge problem, regardless of what kind of admin system you use.


this is just my 2c to what I found to be a reasonably posted topic, so thanks izO for not turning it into a flame fest or anything by calling out names or something in the OP. +1

OH OK!! WHY DONT WE JUST RENAME NSL T0 FRENCHNSL????

Examples:
admin work gets shared, its less work after all and One admin isnt responsible for everything.

if something happens to the main admin (illness accident reallife) the League isnt Busted because of one Headadmin.

in case the one admin and his group want to make hillarious changes, they cannot without community confirm.

NationCup Example: Nobody ever wanted 1 map only and the NSL alone decided it against the NationTeams because they are to Busy already for well organising and community wishes.
(Team Captains disagreed with that Rule, but it was ignored with the words: who the f#ck cares)

Example about Kodiak, even other NSL admins Blamed Kodiak to be unbalanced and not ready to be played in NSL but one Head admin decided to add it without askin the community, he did it because one of his bros admited it.

Zefram & Co did some good work for NS2 but its just time for a Change.

NationCup Example: Nobody ever wanted 1 map only and the NSL alone decided it against the NationTeams because they are to Busy already for well organising and community wishes.
(Team Captains disagreed with that Rule, but it was ignored with the words: who the f#ck cares)

Example about Kodiak, even other NSL admins Blamed Kodiak to be unbalanced and not ready to be played in NSL but one Head admin decided to add it without askin the community, he did it because one of his bros admited it.

Zefram & Co did some good work for NS2 but its just time for a Change.

Can I get back to organizing our season? According to the majority of the voices in this thread, it seems like that's really what the community wants.

Schedule out before week's end.

Zefram says

Can I get back to organizing our season? According to the majority of the voices in this thread, it seems like that's really what the community wants.

Schedule out before week's end.

Please

aslong as all divisions play with the same mods, meaning the same compmod version, and same maps (saying aslong as all divisions play exactly the same game) I am fine with that

But really, there is absolutely no reason to have divisional admins. All its going to do is make simplistic things more complicated. What you really want are not 'admins' per say, you just want ideas in comp mod to go through a voting process. At least that's what I gathered from that novel.

... I was and still am against admins per division. Especially on a such game with a small community and around 150 players only.

Well, it'll reduce the amount of clusterfuckery in the lower divisions and make them more composed. At least a step in the right direction.

If the competitive scene was much much larger, so having everyone voice their opinion individually on a public forum would be unmanageable, there might be a point. But looking at the size of the current compscene, I don't see any use for this idea.

Players within a division will undoubtedly disagree on things anyway. So then you'll have people complain their "chosen" representative is not on thesame page as they are. It'll just overcomplicate things and slow down progress.

Keep it simple, if you disagree with a certain compmod change or tournament rule, discuss it on the forums, and then you're voice has been heard.

From my experience with the ns2 community over the years, people who are willing to put in the work, listen to other people and generally strive to be productive and helpful community members have all "risen to the top" if you will. You can see this with the entirety of the CDT roster, the ENSL staff and those who consistently contribute to Cmod.

It's not that the lower divisions are being denied representation, it's that there has been no one who is willing to put in the work and dedication to do it (and do it well).

and #2. is that simply you'd never get anything done. No way are you going to get 5-6 people to agree on anything when the system is so big an spans so many divisions. This is assuming you can get mythical perfect admins who are unbiased, not trolling, and dedicated. (which I doubt would be possible given how vulnerable the voting system per-division would be open to being)

The existing entities are already very open to public sway. Imo the best way to get representation and subsequent changes, if you feel they are needed, is to find people who share your views and are willing to dedicate a small amount of time on a consistent basis to represent you. Have them contact Zefram to join the NSL staff or myself/dragon/golden/anyone else involved with cmod to join the Cmod team. Because 90% of the time, all we see are complaint threads on the forums, when the reality is that anyone is open to contacting any of the 'powers that be' and if you deliver a well reasoned and detailed argument, it's likely that you will be listened to. But again, it's finding the people willing to do this that is truly the hard part. A lot of people would rather grab their torches and pitchforks on the forums and argue endlessly about how 'the man' is holding them down than try to put forth rational arguments for the actual issues.

As kind of an afterthought, it's also extremely difficult to gauge interest or support for a given issue in this community. A lot of times it appears to be just a small number of individuals who are claiming something is a problem, but how do you know if the majority of the community agrees with it? They certainly don't post on the forums. Especially when there is usually an equally small number of individuals vocalizing opposite views. Usually all there is to go on is hearsay and the minor amount of people who are being vocal about it. But there is no real way to know. This is something that will always be a huge problem, regardless of what kind of admin system you use.

this is just my 2c to what I found to be a reasonably posted topic, so thanks izO for not turning it into a flame fest or anything by calling out names or something in the OP. +1

This system is too complicated, but clearly the current system has failed. Don't blame Titus or Zefram for that, because most of you "ignored" people are to blame. There are plenty of ways you can voice your opinion and be heard. You just have to take the 20 seconds to reach out to them and make a clear and REASONABLE argument. Bitching about a change with no evidence or piss poor reasoning will get you nothing.

Also, if you post about a change you don't like, but most of the community disagrees or beats out your argument, get over it. You lost. Perfect example is the recent challenge to commander PRES. The argument was made, many more people disagree with it, the change is probably going to stay. Adapt and get over it.

You want democracy? Let's simplify your suggestion, OP, because yours wont work. People and teams jump divisions way too much for it to work, and your system calls for way too much time and attention to calling votes and revotes. People will have no interest in the tedium that it creates, and more often than not, those voted won't be doing their duties.

Make 3 seats. Community votes people into these seats. Comp mod and NSL activities and run through these 3 representatives. Don't like an existing rep? Find someone willing to take his place and run a vote. Keep the current dude or fill with new dude.

The 3 dudes can kick Zefram off his "seat of power" if they dare, but must be prepared to replace him with someone equally masochistic and capable of suffering.

The strange thing is what i see from these posts in this thread that actually rantology made a hell of a good reply, with good things in them, and a good answer for Izo's thoughts

While 2 other members from the CDT team writes their reply like they were hit by an rock on the head and dropped as a child from 5th floor, way to pick the staff!

Oh and btw, where are the requests for more members to the CDT team? Cant seem to find them anywhere, it would be so nice to actually see an article post where you girl/boys explain what the "job" concerns about, what's expected of one and another person, and how much involvment you expect from them!

2 people? what? I only see 1? And you can hardly blame people for being frustrated with all the undeserved shit slinging that is going on.

I believe that was the point Rant was making, that it isn't 'job description first, apply second' its if you are already contributing something great to the game or the community, you will get noticed quickly and you let things go from there. Its not a job, its a bunch of people trying to improve a dying game in their spare time to put it bluntly, therefore no expectations or anything like that. It is whatever you can contribute.

I really don't understand the notion that the CDT or comp balance team or anything is some kind of elite club, because its not very hard to get in y'know? Prove that you have something to say, that is intelligent, well structured and thought out CONSISTENTLY and I'm sure that you would be welcomed with open arms.

The main problem I see with this community is its attitude, and this thread is yet another example of it. In response to a perceived problem and a possible solution, there was a lot of hostility, trolling, and dismissal. The people behaving this way are the same ones who do it in other threads where feedback is requested or solutions are proposed, and it really discourages people from speaking up. There's a fundamental culture problem here where opinions are disregarded because of who they belong to and where any disagreement leads to escalation, and I've only seen it getting worse with time. Thankfully, not everyone behaves like this (this thread is much better than most), but there are too few of those people to make things work as they should. I don't see these issues so much in the areas of the UWE forums where competitive players don't post as much, and that makes interacting with the CDT and others there so much more pleasant and welcoming.

In response to rantology, I don't think people were aware that we could actually join the Comp Mod team, or that there were open NSL positions from which one could actually make a difference. If it was said, I suspect I missed it. However, I'm also not sure why holding those positions should be that relevant. Doing that doesn't change the person and it doesn't make them better at constructing useful contributions. The value of someone's input is unrelated to how that person is labeled, and that's especially important in a community this small where there are so few voices that each one represents a large percentage of the whole. I'm glad that some of those running Comp Mod are open to feedback and want to hear what people think, but we have a problem where people's voices are silenced and made unwelcome by a vocal minority, which runs counter to your goals. I can honestly say I would have jumped at the opportunity to work with the Comp Mod team and help improve the game, but putting up with months of bad behavior has really killed that drive and left me frustrated. I'm not alone in that sentiment.

I cautiously support the OP's idea because I think it's a way to allow less-skilled players to actually get a say in this toxic environment. I probably wouldn't have an opinion on it if we did a better job of moderating people's comments here to keep the attitude in check, calling people out when they're actually misbehaving, and nudging people toward higher-quality discussions without so many logical fallacies. That's the real solution we should be striving for, but a culture shift is much harder than a rule change. That said, I believe that culture shift needs to happen if this community is going to endure.

There are few enough important roles that require a "job advertisement". Perhaps head admin and league admin.

Rantology said : " people who are willing to put in the work, listen to other people and generally strive to be productive and helpful community members have all "risen to the top""

Other "jobs" like referees, casters, advertisers, comp mod, CDT, are given out to those who offer their help. It doesn't take a genius to ask one of the top established people (Zefram, Pelagir, Rantology, Wasabi) to see if they need help with any particular thing or to tell them you have a particular set of skills that can help them in any way.

Don't be fooled into thinking that because you aren't being asked to do something, that you are being shut out. That's just victimising yourself for retarded reasons.

Don't be fooled that by contributing you are also helping. If you contribute an idea, it might be a bad idea and shot down. Deal with it. Likewise it might be a good idea, but you might get toxic feedback. Deal with it.

I agree that the forums should be more heavily policed [censored] to try and curb the toxic nature breeding and to help promote critical discussion.

@Ryssk,
http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/135573/community-development-team
http://forums.unknownworlds.com/categories/general-discussion

There's the team, go ahead and ask them, that's the forum you should talk about CDT, not this one. Have fun.


This topic is another grand example of how diluted people in this community are, you've got people resorting to complain about Titus having too much power when their idealogy is proven to be outright stupid, and not agreed by a majority. Or simply those who have no thoughts of their own, just trolling for the sake of random discomfort. I applaud Zefram/Rantology/Dragon to have had as much composure as they've had against a such crowd, even if they've made mistakes of their own, they have been doing an outstanding job and i can't see anyone in this community fit to pick up the slack in the same way.

TL;DR. You want to give feedback, feel free to do so, but don't be suprised if it's neglected when it's bad.

You guys should chill a bit.

The goal of this post wasn't to start a war about CDT COMP MOD,
or Titus ns2 world come on !

I'm not agree with this idea of 1 admin / division cause it's too complicated.

It is already a mess with the current system (and there's only one or 2 people handling this),
so I do not imagine how it could be better and clearer with 10 people taking decisions.

The point here, even if iZo's idea is not good for me, is not to dispute about who can manage
the league or who's making bad decisions.
It doesn't matter against who you're fighting for (which is really entertaining xD, thanks for it),
but truly sad for the league.

We should take the chance from this post to try to find a better way to improve this current
nsl/ensl system because apparently it's working but not as good as it should be.

@Chb, YOU SUCK. YOU DO NOT TELL ANYONE TO CHILL FUUUUUU. :(


Also, You want to elevate or improve the current system, you might actually specify how you intend to do that. Cause i've seen no reasonable thoughts or a complaint other than a lot of banter, with no back thought what so ever.

I doubt anyone is against improvement, but it's really hard to take some people seriously when all they do is post random gif's or phrases that borderline something out of a child that doesnt know any better.

Also, Pelargirl is a bad at everything he does and should sell his laptop for a boobjob.

It's a good idea to have a representative of each division that hold it's interests. But it should not be an "admin" of any sort, just a representative in regards to what should and shouldn't be in the compmod. One team or one division should not have monopoly. It's kind of funny to see those exact people reject this suggestion. Seems like someone don't want to lose that monopoly..

You would want to avoid have "division admins" that are also players in the division. Usually such an admin would be to support the league admin, but Zefram is keeping up fine with the help he got now it seems. So "division admins" are kind of irrelevant.

Examples:
admin work gets shared, its less work after all and One admin isnt responsible for everything.

Admin work gets more complicated because people like to step on each other's toes. I've seen it happen in previous NSL leadership.

if something happens to the main admin (illness accident reallife) the League isnt Busted because of one Headadmin.

Now you're just grasping at straws. The league already has other admins that are capable of making calls.

in case the one admin and his group want to make hillarious changes, they cannot without community confirm.

Vague? If you're talking about game changes, they would have to go through the entire Comp Mod team first. If you're talking about league rules, Zefram almost always asks for feedback on rules and has changed several of them from said feedback in the past.

NationCup Example: Nobody ever wanted 1 map only and the NSL alone decided it against the NationTeams because they are to Busy already for well organising and community wishes.
(Team Captains disagreed with that Rule, but it was ignored with the words: who the f#ck cares)

You're talking about the recent Nations cup which had almost 0 interest and only 2 matches were actually played? Yeah, must be the admins fault there for making it a 1 map tourney.

Example about Kodiak, even other NSL admins Blamed Kodiak to be unbalanced and not ready to be played in NSL but one Head admin decided to add it without askin the community, he did it because one of his bros admited it.

I am pretty sure he wants to include it so people actually play it. The map isn't that great but it's not as horrible as people make it out to be.

Zefram & Co did some good work for NS2 but its just time for a Change.

Hey its Obama's campaign staple.

Let's recap what happened in the last few days. A head admin finds out that there may possibly be a large minority of players who are extremely disgruntled and want a major change in how policies are formed in the community and maybe much more. He found out not through the "mob" leader himself, but through rumors and goes out of his way to confront this person because he's genuinely concerned that this is true. Concerned because if there is a large number of people that are unhappy, maybe there's a way to make the situation better. The head admin decides to delay the season a few days to a week to listen to whatever demands they have and try to reach a compromise. Wow, the commencement of matches were HALTED on the whiff that the community may not be pleased in the hopes that maybe a middle ground could be made and people pleased? That DEFINITELY sounds like someone who doesn't listen and blatantly ignores the community.

Not only has this thread been a massive waste of time, we've derived few to no practical solutions and it really weakens potential outcries in the future, because I'm really getting tired of this kind of shit. Overly dramatic and overly sensationalized ways to get a perceived unheard voice heard. Instead of actually messaging someone, let's just use the method that attempts to create the most drama.

When I talked, izO, I was called "Hitler", "an asshole"... mentions of "TitusMod", "Titus NSL", "a new Rome for the NSL"... "over 100 supporters". With accusations and words so strong, you'd think there'd be something much more substantial presented and more supporters coming out of the wood works. I'm actually quite disappointed with your presentation after words so bold. As for supporters, where are these 100+ people you mentioned? I want to believe you and give you some credibility, but without these 100, it just seems like you were trolling me. Mission accomplished if that's the case.

NationCup Example: Nobody ever wanted 1 map only and the NSL alone decided it against the NationTeams because they are to Busy already for well organising and community wishes.
(Team Captains disagreed with that Rule, but it was ignored with the words: who the f#ck cares)

Example about Kodiak, even other NSL admins Blamed Kodiak to be unbalanced and not ready to be played in NSL but one Head admin decided to add it without askin the community, he did it because one of his bros admited it.

Zefram & Co did some good work for NS2 but its just time for a Change.

I've been willing to listen, but now you're just making things up. With little interest in this summer's events with the draft tournaments and few registered for the Nations Cup and the tournament riding so close to the season, I didn't see a reason to lay a heavy burden of matches/maps for teams participating. On top of that, not a single team or captain that's registered for the Nations Cup has voiced their opinion/complaint on the format to me through PM or a forum post (that I'm aware of).

About ns2_kodiak, I used this summer's events as a testing ground for the viability of a map and see player feedback, because while I value my teammate's opinion, he/they are definitely and have never been the last word. Is that so out of line? To use events that people deem less important than a season? In my opinion, the map is a nice change of pace and a viable competitive map. How many of you have actually played a 6v6 with balanced teams on it before you formed your opinions?

Also, let me remind you that my VERY first action when I became the league admin, in the middle of season 3, was the removal ns2_caged from the rotation (it was unplayable at the time). And why I did I do that? The community said it was unplayable. That pretty much set the tone for all my actions for this league since. I've proven time and time again that there is an open forum of discussion and that decisions I make are mainly based on the pulse of the community when there are solid thoughts presented.

Can I get back to organizing our season? According to the majority of the voices in this thread, it seems like that's really what the community wants.

Schedule out before week's end.

[...]The sad truth is that the ensl is a really unfriendly place and ideas and feelings need to be respected regardless of in game skill. [...]

oh and If a new player came on here and seen herakles calling izo a fucking german nazi cocksucker, what they gonna think? Can we get some fourm moderation back please [...]